Gennadiy N. Lepeshkin: Confidence-building measures are very necessary for leaders of governments to have together. If there are no confidence-building measures, then we... human nature is such that a person will then say to himself in spite of everything: "Well, it's better if I have something socked away, something I can use to whack the other guy over the head with, and I won't say a word about it to anyone.
Gary Crocker: "It's impossible to verify!" How many times have I heard that? It's impossible. Therefore, we shouldn't have a treaty. That's where this leads. This argument, impossible to verify, leads to we shouldn't have treaties because treaties can't be verified. We shouldn't be engaging in this kind... We should just build up our own forces, because we can't trust the other side. That's where this impossible-to-verify leads you, is down a very bad path, in my... This is my opinion now, not everybody, obviously, agrees with me. Because I heard it was impossible to verify BW. We would never find out what the Soviet Union was doing. Well, that's not true, is it? Because we did. And where I, it may sound funny, but where I hang my hat in this verification of BW, is on the people. I've worked Lybia as well as the Soviet Union and other places. Somebody... there's going to be somebody in that country that's going to decide what he's doing is illegal. Or I may get him on money, but more than likely I'm going to... somebody who's dissatisfied, he doesn't like the leadership, he doesn't like... and he doesn't like the fact that he's making this stuff to kill people. And that guy is going to talk. So "impossible to verify" means somehow I'm not going to have access to people, or whatever, and I... I can say, in a place like the Soviet Union it got easier because everything opened up, but that's closed a little bit now. North Korea, now there's a hard target. I mean that's hard. Does that mean we're not going to? No, we've got defectors out of North Korea.