Gary Crocker: Sverdlovsk happens, and remember, we're in a period of doubters, we haven't sold our case to the policy people and senior intelligence people that they [the Soviets] have a program. So even with the evidence we had initially, there was a senior person who still refused to believe it, and he bought the tainted meat, okay, and this goes on quite a while, you know, Nesselson comes, quite later, he brings these scientists, medical people who say they treated them, you know, that's quite late down the game, when it should have been absolutely obvious, and I went to NATO with a briefing in my, you know, ready to go, open briefing to brief NATO on Sverdlovsk, and I was told not to pull that out of the bag unless they called me. Well what happens, it leaked, Sverdlovsk leaked to the press, and there was a big panic because they'd been trying to get more evidence and figure out a way to sanitize the doctors' testimony, which was really the key thing, the doctors that actually treated them, and other things, so... and the rest of the program of course is still highly classified, you know, we're not talking about all these other things we know, so I had to give the briefing, and the cat's out of the bag. I actually... I mean, I'm somewhat appalled, I think it should have created more of a firestorm around the world, but it didn't. If you really look at post... Nesselson's still out arguing there's no BW program, quite a few years after Sverdlovsk, I mean he's doing this for quite a long time, and so are others, so our battle to try to prove this keeps going after Sverdlovsk, even though this senior person debriefed the doctor and became a believer, and other senior people became believers after a while, but once we had the defector in '89, they all became believers, all of these naysayers dropped off and high level inter-agency committee was formed that I sat on for several years to really approach the Soviets this time, big time, and set up the visits and get this solved, and of course we're lucky because we have first Gorbachev and then Yeltsin, we're not dealing with Brezhnev or something, we're dealing with a whole new group of people, and a new world, a world interested in investment and all kinds of things so everything changes.